Curse

Improvavel · Jul 09, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendel

Wtf sort of logic is that. You don't gain any benefits from your party all having 600hp. You would gain benefits from 4 people all doing an extra 5-10 damage per hit, especially on larger AoE attacks. If your allies were all running with ~450 max hp and were constantly balling up to be hit by high damage AoEs then you might have problems, but its really not hard to be on 510+ even without items and to spread out a little so the Prot has an easier time. Skills in PvP don't hit for 250+, you can be killed with or without a sup rune by the same attack quite easily.

I guess most people in this thread never died, nor do any mistakes, nor there was a moment when instead of full health they were at 80% health and the monk wasn't healing them because there was other party members with lower health/taking damage and 80% is supposed to be fairly safe.

Nope stuff like that never happen.

Jeydra · Jul 09, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

but it still shows the damage increase is so small, that you barely notice the increase in killing speed? i still cant justify takin the sup for a SF elem just to get a couple of points of damage increase.

You can try it out if you want - attempt the same area twice, once with 14 Fire and the other with 16 Fire, and compare the results. The difference is small, but it certainly exists, and so I run the Superior rune.

@Improvavel - 100 AL vs. Fire isn't all that common to be honest, since there're a fair number of mobs against which I hit 140 damage with Lightning Orb (16 Air), so it means they have 80 AL or less. If I were going to run Fire Magic I'd certainly have Weaken Armor somewhere, which magnifies the difference. Also, -75 HP certainly adds up, if they're on the same character. I don't recommend two Superiors. I think a Major and a Superior is pushing it as well. But I certainly use Superiors on all my heroes. Your whole party might have 300 less HP but so what? No single target is easily spikable (like I said, if you're against monsters who hit for >200 damage a hit, you really should micro and aggro properly). If you're getting pressured out, you can see that as well as party bars fall and retreat before you actually take deaths. In this, H/H is superior to humans because they move as one.

80% HP is quite safe, almost all the time. Mistakes certainly happen, but when you do, perhaps fixing the mistake is a better option than blaming the Superior rune.

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Improvavel - 100 AL vs. Fire isn't all that common to be honest, since there're a fair number of mobs against which I hit 140 damage with Lightning Orb (16 Air), so it means they have 80 AL or less. If I were going to run Fire Magic I'd certainly have Weaken Armor somewhere, which magnifies the difference

Basically all the rangers, warriors and paras in HM?

And every level 28 caster mob will have 84 armor.

Quote:

But I certainly use Superiors on all my heroes. Your whole party might have 300 less HP but so what?

Don't forget henchies are 480 health.

Quote:

No single target is easily spikable (like I said, if you're against monsters who hit for >200 damage a hit, you really should micro and aggro properly).

Basically tank and lets hope they don't lose aggro which is very hard with AoE damage going around...

Quote:

If you're getting pressured out, you can see that as well as party bars fall and retreat before you actually take deaths. In this, H/H is superior to humans because they move as one.

They also like to move as one into those Deep Freezes.

So basically you are saying, when it is easy who cares - I agree.

If it is hard spend time microing and aggroing. Weren't you bringing those superior runes to kill faster in the first place?

Quote:

80% HP is quite safe, almost all the time. Mistakes certainly happen, but when you do, perhaps fixing the mistake is a better option than blaming the Superior rune.

PvE is about being alive - you are alive you will win.

Rarely does killing faster changes the outcome of that, because what is keeping you alive is protection (as in every skill that makes killing your party harder, directly or indirectly by making enemy mob less efficient) and not heals. Protection works better with more health (I don't care if PS will reduce more damage with lower health, it is still the same number of hits).

Generally the answer (unless you are using crummy skills/builds) is to increase protection (and this doesn't mean more monks/backliners)and not the damage.

In most NM PvE mobs threat is low, so trading health for damage is acceptable.

In most HM PVE (or at least the areas that matter) the mob threat in terms of damage is high, so trading health for something that wont make you survive, isn't.

Jeydra · Jul 10, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

You can say mobs have 84 armor, but let's I know my Lightning Orb @ 16 Air hits for 140 against casters. That means the mobs have 60 armor after Cracked Armor, or 80 armor natural. Or something like that. Results matter, not exactly how much armor mobs have to 20 significant numbers. Warriors, Paras, Rangers, so what - that's like 50% of all mobs, probably less?

Henchmen have 480 HP but so what? I find 480 HP on everyone in the party pretty manageable, although I still use Survivor insignias etc to boost HP to ~520. Blessed Insignias might be better, I never tried.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If it is hard spend time microing and aggroing. Weren't you bringing those superior runes to kill faster in the first place?

If you're saying this, the problem is your technical skills, not the Superior runes. I wrote this long post (that I never made) about some of the key techniques to use when H/H'ing. Some things to note:

1. Against most mobs - don't have an exact number but certainly over 50% of all mobs - you simply do not need any advanced techniques. Or micro, for that matter. Just bull's rush and destroy them.
2. Against any mob with heavy single-target nukes, e.g. Ancient Vaettirs in Raven's Point, proper aggro takes about 2 seconds to execute.
3. Against any mob with heavy AoE nukes, e.g. Burning Forest in Sacnoth Valley, proper aggro takes maybe 5 seconds to execute. The dangerous nukes are the DoT AoE's, as well as Shockwave and Rodgort's Invocation. Unless you are grappling with heavy DP Deep Freeze should not require this level of precision. Your healers should be able to tank 2-3 Deep Freezes at short notice, even with Superiors - if they cannot, fire them and use heroes.
4. Against the really hard mobs, involving equal or nearly equal numbers with strong healers to boot, then proper aggro depends on how much DP your team has. If you have no DP, it might take 20 seconds. If your entire team is almost 60'ed, it might take a minute or even more. The more DP you have, the safer you have to play, and so the more time you take.

I assume HM in everything listed above. Some select areas in NM might still require care and precision, but those are very rare indeed. The mobs that require technique #4 above ... assuming no DP on your team, I can only think of one actually - some mobs in Forgewight HM with two Stone Summit healers and Burning Spirits, and nine monsters to a mob.

I repeat, if you are taking a long time to aggro and micro, the problem is your technical skills, not the Superior rune. The time it takes to properly aggro a dangerous mob is so short, the extra killing speed from Superior runes will outweigh it.

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I repeat, if you are taking a long time to aggro and micro, the problem is your technical skills, not the Superior rune. The time it takes to properly aggro a dangerous mob is so short, the extra killing speed from Superior runes will outweigh it.

That would have much more impact on me if I didn't recall all the times my characters were under 75 health and then were healed to full health.

And of course, degen can kill level 20 parties.

Improvavel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

About the orb, I went and attacked a level 30 avalanche in HM, with air magic 12, in ice cliffs chasms.

The orb dealt 82 damage while shell shock dealt 27 damage.

That suggests 104 base armor for the avalanche, and a 4.4 increase armor per level over 20.

The same level 30 avalanche took 45 from a 15 FM Mind blast and 20 from a 12 EM glowstone.

So the guy seems to be weak vs fire and have 104 armor against the other elements.

What mobs did you tested your orb against, what level?

P.S.:Curiously in the official wiki they state mobs win 2.5 AL per level over 20.

Jeydra · Jul 11, 2009, 10:07 AM // 10:07

From my HM ZB run today, some numbers for you ...

Lightning Orb @ 16 spec vs:

Avalanche = 106 damage;
Frozen Elemental = 140 damage;
Modniir Hunters = 85 damage;
Rabbit = 106 damage;
Modniir Berserkers = 91 damage;
Modniir Priests = 140 damage;
Modniir Shamen = 140 damage;
Mist Vaettirs = 140 damage when their Elemental Resistance is down, else ~80 damage (can't remember)
Shadow Vaettirs = 140 damage;
Scourge Vaettirs = 140 damage.

That's 10 different foes against which 6 of them Lightning Orb does max damage, or 60%.

By the way there's an obvious counterargument against the "but there were times I was <75 health and was healed up" argument: at a certain point in health you start playing defensively, and when you're at 150 health I'm at 75, so I'll be playing more defensively and so avoid dying. Sometimes anyway.

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

From my HM ZB run today, some numbers for you ...

Lightning Orb @ 16 spec vs:

Avalanche = 106 damage;
Frozen Elemental = 140 damage;
Modniir Hunters = 85 damage;
Rabbit = 106 damage;
Modniir Berserkers = 91 damage;
Modniir Priests = 140 damage;
Modniir Shamen = 140 damage;
Mist Vaettirs = 140 damage when their Elemental Resistance is down, else ~80 damage (can't remember)
Shadow Vaettirs = 140 damage;
Scourge Vaettirs = 140 damage.

That's 10 different foes against which 6 of them Lightning Orb does max damage, or 60%.

By the way there's an obvious counterargument against the "but there were times I was <75 health and was healed up" argument: at a certain point in health you start playing defensively, and when you're at 150 health I'm at 75, so I'll be playing more defensively and so avoid dying. Sometimes anyway.

Lightning Orb causes cracked armor first. So I guess, if you play ele, cause cracked armor

Jeydra · Jul 11, 2009, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Improvavel - 100 AL vs. Fire isn't all that common to be honest, since there're a fair number of mobs against which I hit 140 damage with Lightning Orb (16 Air), so it means they have 80 AL or less. If I were going to run Fire Magic I'd certainly have Weaken Armor somewhere, which magnifies the difference. Also, -75 HP certainly adds up, if they're on the same character. I don't recommend two Superiors. I think a Major and a Superior is pushing it as well. But I certainly use Superiors on all my heroes. Your whole party might have 300 less HP but so what? No single target is easily spikable (like I said, if you're against monsters who hit for >200 damage a hit, you really should micro and aggro properly). If you're getting pressured out, you can see that as well as party bars fall and retreat before you actually take deaths. In this, H/H is superior to humans because they move as one.

For obvious reasons ...

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way there's an obvious counterargument against the "but there were times I was <75 health and was healed up" argument: at a certain point in health you start playing defensively, and when you're at 150 health I'm at 75, so I'll be playing more defensively and so avoid dying. Sometimes anyway.

Unless I just drop from full health or there abouts to <75. Seems to happen often enough in hard places.

I remember that when I started playing HM with my necro and I was using SS and so a sup curses and then swapped to minor, I didn't notice any significant kill slowing but I noticed that I was getting much less targeted and dying much less. Same with warrior.

Ensign · Jul 11, 2009, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Superiors matter a lot less if you're playing with henchmen, since mobs love to zero in on those henchies and a superior isn't going to change that. If you don't have henchies the superior runes get a lot more noticeable.

In a lot of PvE set-ups maximum health really only starts to matter if people get sloppy; aggro control takes care of most of the problems with lower maximum health. Sure, in a vacuum using a superior is a very bad trade in most cases; it costs you a lot more in durability than it makes up numerically. But a lot of what you're giving up is margin to take risks and play aggressively, and that often is not all that relevant in PvE.

If you're going through the effort to do everything right in approaching each mob, I can see superiors giving a non-trivial increase in speed, but if you aren't they'll probably cost you more than you'll gain.

Expherious · Jul 11, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Superiors + squishies = fail

With the exception of elementalists, fire magic used to be fun.. in proph
lately I've been speccing into water ( its actually fun people! )
I especially like to run it in AB when you see someone trying to IMS away and you Ice Spike 'em HAHAHA I get good lulz outta that.

Oh and I run a Dual attunement Water ele due to huge energy costs.

Jeydra · Jul 12, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Unless I just drop from full health or there abouts to <75. Seems to happen often enough in hard places.

I remember that when I started playing HM with my necro and I was using SS and so a sup curses and then swapped to minor, I didn't notice any significant kill slowing but I noticed that I was getting much less targeted and dying much less. Same with warrior.

How can you drop from full health to <75 health in an instant if you're doing your micro right?

I've always used Superiors since before I could remember, and the number of times I die steadily dropped from fairly common to quite rare as I got better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But a lot of what you're giving up is margin to take risks and play aggressively, and that often is not all that relevant in PvE.

Lol, my PvE play is aggressive and fast with zero downtime between mobs. I don't wait, even if henchmen haven't had time to regen energy. In fact "aggressive and fast" is so much ingrained into my playstyle that if a build has a considerable downtime for whatever reason (eg. Arcane Echo Searing Flames Arcane Mimicry Elemental Attunement) I ditch it and run something else. Which is half the reason I've been using AP for a year; the other half is that I've not found a better build.

I have enough experience to tell at a glance which aggro techniques I'll need to use at a glance, and apply them while I'm running into aggro range of the mob. There's very little pause. Like I said above, there generally isn't more than 5 seconds difference between proper aggro and running straight into the enemy, except against the really hard mobs when it might take ~20s.

The real thing you're giving up when you run a Superior rune is margin for error when you already have some ~40% DP. But of course, if you get that deep into the DP hole then you really should look at what you've done, learn from mistakes and don't die that much next time ...

Ensign · Jul 12, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol, my PvE play is aggressive and fast with zero downtime between mobs.

Aggressive tactics, not low downtime. There is a substantial difference.

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

How can you drop from full health to <75 health in an instant if you're doing your micro right?

Since my 600 health warrior was "spiked" by the Ettin boss in Bloodstone caves in a single hit, from full health to laying on the ground, I don't feel safe anymore (keeping enchantments on that place isn't exactly easier either).

Pocketmancer · Jul 12, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

I honestly hate all these people telling others how to play. Don't use superiors, use minors only nub, etc. I play on my Elementalist with superior runes and a major rune and by staying smart and on my toes, I've never had problems vanquishing hard mode. The Guild Wars PvE game is only as hard as you are ignorant, and if you aren't ignorant, the game isn't hard.

Learn to swap weapons, use flatbows to pull enemies, learn to flag your party members, adjust builds accordingly to areas, switch roles if you need to, pretty much, play the game smart. And furthermore, figure out your own strategies. Your own success depends on yourself, not what others tell you. You can take others' advice, but you should analyze their suggestions and make it work for you.

---

And for that matter, there are times where I completely ditch the Elementalist role. I pull out a bow, I equip BHA, and I play the ranger at times. Or if I need to, I'd play the healer. Sometimes even the spirit spammer. I make my playstyle flexible and variable according to the places I wish to play in HM.

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pocketmancer

I honestly hate all these people telling others how to play. Don't use superiors, use minors only nub, etc.

First the OP asked for an opinion.

Second you use whatever rocks your boat.

Third, working is different from best or more efficient.

Jeydra · Jul 12, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Aggressive tactics, not low downtime. There is a substantial difference.

What's the difference? In PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Since my 600 health warrior was "spiked" by the Ettin boss in Bloodstone caves in a single hit, from full health to laying on the ground, I don't feel safe anymore (keeping enchantments on that place isn't exactly easier either).

Lol what happened to the micro'ed Prot Spirit? I also doubt the Eldritch Ettin hits for 600 damage a hit.

In any case what I do as an Elementalist with 515 max HP ... 1) Cripple him with YMLAD! if he comes too close, and 2) stay behind a wall of minions + the Vanguard Assassin.

Abedeus · Jul 12, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Actually, I've learned that if you want maximum efficiency, you can (except for melee characters) use Superiors. Okay, and except for monks.

Just use and MM/Ritualist and hide behind minions and spirits.

Xenomortis · Jul 12, 2009, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol what happened to the micro'ed Prot Spirit? I also doubt the Eldritch Ettin hits for 600 damage a hit.

According to the wiki he can hit casters for around 300 damage. 2 hits will bring down a caster - it's possible for a protter to miss prot spirit in that time, as he'll be distracted by the enchanted scythes floating around.

A warrior though? That should take closer to 4 hits to kill. Prot spirit in that time shouldn't be a problem to micro and I don't recall any enchantment removal in that area.